Good Day All,
Now that the holidays are all but over it is time to work toward building out hybridphoto.

How would you organize the forum?

To get the ball rolling I have created a list of major categories with subcategories and or likely subjects indented underneath. Please feel free to creat your own list, or edit this one as you see fit.

Capture

Film
Scanner
Scan Back/DSLR/DP&S
Created on the Computer
Video Capture
???
Process

Calibration, Profiling, Curves and Techniques
Software
Systems
???

Output and Prints

Inkjet
Digital RA4
Digital Negatives
Carbon
Contact Prints PT/PD, POP, AZO, Etc…
Enlargements
Screen, Video and Projection
????
Aesthetics and Philosophy

Images
Artists
Concepts, Ideas, and Projects
???
Member Functions

Print Exchanges
Meet-ups
???
Workshops and resources

Workshops
Books
Websites
????
General

Lounge
Introduce Yourself
???

In my opinion the only way to significantly increase the traffic in the forum would be to open it to all digital matters. So long as it is limited to Hybrid subjects there is very little interest to photographers not interested in the Alternative Processes.

Les,
I don't disagree that if this site were only limited to imaging in any form that the potential pool to draw from would be immense. That site might yet come, but it will not be here.

I think the site has a large enough scope to be viable. The site does not have to get as large as APUG (17k and growing) to be a success. As it is the only people posting are those who do alt process with a digital step. This is not where the site ends.

Most every photographer I know who shoots film has an interest in getting his scans to look good, or his output (be it for the web, inkjet or digital RA4) to look good. Many who shoot digital have an interest in getting good output on traditional media. The one thing the folks who have joined and the folks I've mentioned have in common is that they have a higher concern for quality.

Finally this thread and my current efforts are not about increasing the site's membership - yet, but about making the site fit the needs of the membership and the site's mission.

OK so what's the purpose of the site?

Is it to be like Photo.net (http://photo.net/), the Photo Forum (http://www.thephotoforum.com/), Photo Takers (http://www.phototakers.com/forum/), Photo Forum (http://www.photoforum.com/), ePhotoZine (http://www.ephotozine.com/forum/) or Club Snap (http://forums.clubsnap.org/) or Use Film (http://www.usefilm.com/) - a generalist site?
I don't think is it to be like a product specific site like Nikonians (http://www.nikonians.org/), Ilford Cafe (http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocommunity/forums/theforum/default.asp)?
Or like a format specific sites like ToyCamera.com (http://www.onfal.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=6) or the Medium Format Forum (http://www.hasselbladinfo.com/) or the Large Format Forum (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/)?
Is it to compete against a process or technique specific site like the Alternative Photography Forum (www.alternativephotography.com/forum.html), f295 (http://www.f295.org/) or APUG.org (http://www.apug.org/forums/home.php)?
Definitely not a genre type forums like Glamour 1 (http://www.glamour1.com/) (glamour photography), Community Zoe (http://www.communityzoe.com/) (nudes), Luminous Landscapes (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/) (landscapes), Macro.org (http://www.macrophotography.org/) (macro) ?
It won't be geography based like the Canadian Photographers Network (http://www.canphoto.net/) ?
Is it going to digital specific like DPForums (http://www.dpforums.com/forum/), PhotoZO (http://www.photozo.com/forum/), Fred Miranda (http://www.fredmiranda.com/), BytePhoto (http://www.bytephoto.com/forums/) or Passions for Pixels (http://www.passionforpixels.com/)?
Or is it going to be a combo like Digital Wedding Chat (http://www.digitalweddingchat.com/) or Photography on the Net (http://photography-on-the.net/)?
Will it be geared to the Amateur (http://www.amateurphotographer.com/forums/ubbthreads.php)or the Professional (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/index.jsp)?
Maybe it will be action specific like DPChallenge (http://www.dpchallenge.com/)?

Couple of thoughts:

Digital Negatives - this uniqueness will eventually attract more traffic - not a lot, but more as people consider this technique
Output - we have folks who are extremely knowledgeable about the various output techniques from inkjets to Lambdas and the various paper products. I think this too is a uniqueness that will attract attention, as there is very little talk about that other than your household inkjet printer.
Scanning - virtually no one talks about scanning in depth. I say we seize this opportunity.

Also, I'd say we forget about camera digital capture. We can't compete there from the above posts. We can have a place for it, but I'd say we have to focus on what's missing in the internet today.

Anyway, to be successful not necessarily big, this place has to fill a void. Just my thoughts.

Regards, Art.

I would like to think this site is about sharing ideas and the vehicle for film traditionalists to make a smooth transition to a working platform within the digital world , without the bullshit baffels brains that can go on in an environment where one person knows one ounce more knowlege and is suddenly a printing expert. Or an environment that is dictated by the manufacturers of digital devices.
I like the fact that this site is slowly gathering members from outside sources that can help smooth out my own transition problems of working in digital.
I would really like to see someone from within this group who really knows PS start a basic learning description of how PS uses traditional and modern approches to creating an image that is intended to be a beautiful final print


1. Best way to capture when using a digital camera.
2. Best way to process the file for printing.
3. The different ways to control contrast using PS
4. How to read a histogram and why one should know this
5. Do I use Curves , Levels, Brightness/Contrast, and why
6. How does Colour Correction work, is it the same as a colour enlarger
7. How does one accent colours in an image
8. How does one accent a subject with dodging and burning tools
9. How does one dust bust properly.
10. What is to be expected when your file goes from your moniter to print

These last 10 items are things that concern me when I print either on an enlarger or on a digital printer. I am sure the list is endless.

The only real satisfaction that I get from photography, is to see a print that I make put in a frame and hung on a wall for viewing.Therefore I would like to learn as many tricks from other printers on this forum to apply to my own work.

Personally, I think your proposed build-out looks great.

It covers the obvious topics, and gives room for expansion.

If an area gets very low traffic over a long period, it can be rolled up into something more general.

If an area gets dominated by one particular topic, that can be spun off into a new (sub)forum.

One thing I did notice is that there are no brand-specific forums (fora?) for anything. That's a Good Thing! :)

Overall I think it's a good plan. :)

Les,
I don't disagree that if this site were only limited to imaging in any form that the potential pool to draw from would be immense. That site might yet come, but it will not be here.

I think the site has a large enough scope to be viable. The site does not have to get as large as APUG (17k and growing) to be a success. As it is the only people posting are those who do alt process with a digital step. This is not where the site ends.

Most every photographer I know who shoots film has an interest in getting his scans to look good, or his output (be it for the web, inkjet or digital RA4) to look good. Many who shoot digital have an interest in getting good output on traditional media. The one thing the folks who have joined and the folks I've mentioned have in common is that they have a higher concern for quality.

Finally this thread and my current efforts are not about increasing the site's membership - yet, but about making the site fit the needs of the membership and the site's mission.


g'day jd

i'm sorry to say i found this, and others of yours, post to be confusing

does this site only allow 'hybrid' work/discussions etc or does it allow any digital/hybrid/print making/imaging

i think you firstly need to set rules and guidelines for the site

so what is the site's "mission"?

Ray,
Hybrid is "where digital imaging in traditional photography merge." This statement can be found under the logo on the top left of all pages.

I'm sorry if my post are confusing and I'm especially interested in how the forum organization might better meet the intent of the site.

so jd, an inkjet print of an image captured by a digital camera would be ok here because it meets the analogue criteria of being a physical entity i.e. it is a print rather than a screen image or a computer file

No ray it wouldn't. And again I'm sorry that you don't seem to get it.

No ray it wouldn't. And again I'm sorry that you don't seem to get it.

jd, if previous threads are considered, i'm not the only one who doesn't 'get it'

the phrase, which is as you point out on every page, is far too vague

i stepped on sevearl toes at APUG because i didn't know the rules, here there aren't any rules just vague phrases and poorly explained principles

again, because maybe you don't get it, what are the rules and what is the site mission

you have to use analog materials as in film chemicals etc. in *some* portion of your workflow. You can shoot film and make inkjet prints. You can shoot digital and make digital negatives and make platinum/palladium prints. You can shoot film and scan it and then output it onto Fuji Crystal Archive.

Just some portion has to be analog and not in the sense that a "print" is physical and you can hold it, but in the sense that APUG takes it to be.

you have to use analog materials as in film chemicals etc. in *some* portion of your workflow. You can shoot film and make inkjet prints. You can shoot digital and make digital negatives and make platinum/palladium prints. You can shoot film and scan it and then output it onto Fuji Crystal Archive.

Just some portion has to be analog and not in the sense that a "print" is physical and you can hold it, but in the sense that APUG takes it to be.

well yeh, but this ain't apug

well yeh, but this ain't apugIt's not meant to be APUG Ray. It's meant for people who mix digital and analog techniques in their workflow/process. That's why it's called 'hybrid'.

Regards, Art.

In such a new and emerging field, I think it would be getting off on the wrong foot to set out an elaborate scheme of "rules" for the site. The general guideline that this site is for discussion of processes that involve the combination of digital and traditional methods seems clear enough, and what actually gets discussed can develop organically, and it seems like that's happening.

The *only* rule regarding topics is that the process used to create an image involve both digital and traditional methods and materials.

This can include ulf to digital neg to pt/pd , computer generated illustration to carbon, dslr to digital RA4 or even 16mm cine to dvd.

It would be a shame to have too many rules and we will do all we can to minimize the inclusion of rules.

There will be the usual rules regarding tone and civility.

Please forgive the shortness of my previous answer I'm quitting smoking and a bit testy.

"... Please forgive the shortness of my previous answer I'm quitting smoking and a bit testy..."

Considering the thanklessness of your job here, I'd say you're entitled to your share of testiness.

Good luck with the smoking. I've been away for a coupla years now and appreciate what a tough thing you're going through.

Thanks Bob, but I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it.

OK, so let's take a look at all the possible combination workflows/processes as well to be clear what 'hybrid' is. Here's what I've come up with:

Film (A) --> Enlarger (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A) [Traditional workflow - APUG.org]*
Film (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Lambda or Chromira Print (A)
Film (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Glicee or Inkjet Print (D)
Film (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Film (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Tissue (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Digital Capture (D) --> PS (D) --> Glicee or Inkjet Print (D) [This is pure digital workflow and is not in our domain, I think]*
Digital Capture (D) --> PS (D) --> Lambda or Chromira Print (A)
Digital Capture (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Digital Capture (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Tissue (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Paper or Other Object (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Lambda or Chromira Print (A)
Paper or Other Object (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Glicee or Inkjet Print (D)
Paper or Other Object (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Paper or Other Object (A) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Digital Negative (D) --> Tissue (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A)
Film (A) --> Tissue (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A) [Traditional carbon print]
Positive Film (A) --> Inter-Negative Film (A) --> Enlarger --> Photosensitive Paper (A) [Traditional workflow]*
Film (A) --> Polaroid Photosensitive Emulsion (A) --> Paper or Other Material (A) [Polaroid Transfer and Polaroid Emulsion Transfer]*
Objects (A) --> Enlarger (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A) [Photograms]*
Photosensitive Material (A) --> Presentation Material (A) [Wet Plate Collodion, Ambrotype, Ferrotype, Tintype]*
So except for those workflows that are asterisked, the rest is within this site's domain, I guess. These can be considered 'hybrid' processes. Of course, certain processes are additive, for example 16 and 11 is one example. I think I'm stating the obvious here, but maybe for newbies and those that are unfamiliar with the implied term, something like this should be part of the hybrid definition.

I think John did a good attempt at organizing the forum into the 3 main components of the hybrid workflow Capture --> Process --> Output, plus he added things like equipment, materials, and other topics to round out the site.

So the $64k question is should the site focus on capture at all? APUG seems to cover film capture and all those other sites I posted above seem to cover digital capture, so what are we really talking about here - the hybrid process and to a lessor extent the output.

Maybe there is too much thinking involved here. I personally know what this site is about, but it's like porn - hard to define, but I know it when I see it. Hmmm...this is like a porn site! LOL

Regards, Art.

great effort Art, but i suspect who have thought too much

doesn't 14 need an asterisk?

how is a Lamda (A) but an inkjet (D)?

you now have problems of definition and acceptance

i pushed for rules etc. not to actually have rules stated and set but to highlight what you have now defined, i.e. there are many possibilities

given the endless possibilities should we, or even do we need to, set limits and restrictions?

how would the following be recieved -

Film (A) --> Enlarger (A) --> Photosensitive Paper (A) --> Drypoint etched overlay (A?) --> Ink print via printmakers press (A?) --> Hand coloured print (A?) --> Scan (D) --> PS (D) --> Print (A?/D?/??)

i feel that above all else we should be a site that embraces and encourages experimentation with the goal of creating high quality visual art by whatever means as long as photography is somewhere in the workflow

thnx
Ray