HP recently released a video regarding their latest ink jet printer that has driver setting specifically designed for digital negatives. They are printing 24inch negatives for Elliott Erwitt using green and black inks. A lot of us here have been producing excellent digital negatives for a long while now, however it is an interesting collaboration and shows at least one manufacturer is taking digital negatives quite seriously. I would like to see the actual print before passing judgement however Erwitt seemed happy!

Video link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8HroH1Leio

Thanks David. It's a shame it's on Youtube the site is banned in Turkey, so I can't access, it. HP have put out a Press release on the ability to produce digital negatives as well.

Ian

I am seriously thinking of getting the 24 inch HP for ongoing needs and this software may be the deciding factor when I am ready for purchase.

These HP printers look well constructed but I'd be interested to see a comparison between this HP system and the Quad Tone RIP approach. I realise the video is just a short introduction but the only mention of workflow was to click the 'digital negative' setting; whereas QTRip employs a more complex process.

Tom

These HP printers look well constructed but I'd be interested to see a comparison between this HP system and the Quad Tone RIP approach. I realise the video is just a short introduction but the only mention of workflow was to click the 'digital negative' setting; whereas QTRip employs a more complex process.

Tom

I would just like to find out what the methodology is for deriving they're version of digital negatives. There is the implication from the video is that all one needs to do is to select the Digital Negative media setting on the control panel and one is set to go.

I would love for Gabe Greenberg to post on the HybridPhoto forum and fill in some details about the new HP printer.

Bob Carne why don't you call him? You've got more professional clout than most of the rest of us so your chance of getting a positive response is apt to be good.

Whatca think?

Don Bryant

Wow thanks Don , I didn't think I carried a big stick.

A good friend just joined HP here in Toronto in management capacity so I will follow through , as we are looking for a 24 inch machine for the fall so this gives me good reason.

this may take a few weeks so don't hold your breath but I will try to get some inside info.

Bob

I would just like to find out what the methodology is for deriving they're version of digital negatives. There is the implication from the video is that all one needs to do is to select the Digital Negative media setting on the control panel and one is set to go.

I would love for Gabe Greenberg to post on the HybridPhoto forum and fill in some details about the new HP printer.

Bob Carne why don't you call him? You've got more professional clout than most of the rest of us so your chance of getting a positive response is apt to be good.

Whatca think?

Don Bryant

HP recently released a video regarding their latest ink jet printer that has driver setting specifically designed for digital negatives. They are printing 24inch negatives for Elliott Erwitt using green and black inks. A lot of us here have been producing excellent digital negatives for a long while now, however it is an interesting collaboration and shows at least one manufacturer is taking digital negatives quite seriously. I would like to see the actual print before passing judgement however Erwitt seemed happy!

Video link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8HroH1Leio
Unfortunately the video tells us *nothing* about HP's digital neg technology or how it compares to other methods. What did I learn from this video? Only that Erwitt doesn't make his own negatives or do his own platinum printing.

Unfortunately the video tells us *nothing* about HP's digital neg technology or how it compares to other methods.

I am sure this information will be available soon, give it some time! Its a new printer that not many people own and none of us have made further enquires yet.

I am sure this information will be available soon, give it some time! Its a new printer that not many people own and none of us have made further enquires yet.

Dave,

Don't get too wound up over this announcement. I'm sure the HP Z3200 can produce very smooth negatives but so can other wide bodied printers.

I think we have every right to be skeptical. Some where or another there is mention of the fact that one can download the Digital Negative module. The implication is that it will be like Manna from Heaven, Manna wa Salwa, food of God. The module was developed by HP Color Scientist and photographer Angel Albarran. This immediately raises a red flag for me, as in who is Angel Albarran? A mystic scientist out of the east who has developed a comprehensive system that is superior to current methods.

Sorry I don't mean to sound dramatic, I'm just a little cautious about announcements like this.

Don Bryant

PS Thanks for the video link.

Dave,

Don't get too wound up over this announcement. I'm sure the HP Z3200 can produce very smooth negatives but so can other wide bodied printers.

I think we have every right to be skeptical. Some where or another there is mention of the fact that one can download the Digital Negative module. The implication is that it will be like Manna from Heaven, Manna wa Salwa, food of God. The module was developed by HP Color Scientist and photographer Angel Albarran. This immediately raises a red flag for me, as in who is Angel Albarran? A mystic scientist out of the east who has developed a comprehensive system that is superior to current methods.

Sorry I don't mean to sound dramatic, I'm just a little cautious about announcements like this.

Don Bryant

PS Thanks for the video link.

Thanks, Don. I got a good chuckle out of your post. Heading home now, hoping for some Manna wa Salwa :D

Dave,

Don't get too wound up over this announcement. I'm sure the HP Z3200 can produce very smooth negatives but so can other wide bodied printers.

I think we have every right to be skeptical. Some where or another there is mention of the fact that one can download the Digital Negative module. The implication is that it will be like Manna from Heaven, Manna wa Salwa, food of God. The module was developed by HP Color Scientist and photographer Angel Albarran. This immediately raises a red flag for me, as in who is Angel Albarran? A mystic scientist out of the east who has developed a comprehensive system that is superior to current methods.

Sorry I don't mean to sound dramatic, I'm just a little cautious about announcements like this.

Don Bryant

PS Thanks for the video link.

Hi Don

Don’t worry i am not getting wound up over the announcement, merely reporting developments about a printer manufacturer trying to cater for this niche market.

As I qualified in my initial post, most of us here are using numerous different methods to achieve excellent digital negatives and I never mentioned that this would be the ‘holy grail’ of digital negative production. Just yesterday I was printing up some 30x24 inch negatives on my Epson 7800 that have worked out well and at the moment I am happy with this printer for creating this size of negative, however some members of the forum who are wanting to print large negatives might want to consider this new printer as an option. Had i not bought the 7800 i would have been interested in the HP.

Update :

I received an email today out of the blue from Angel Albarran, the colour scientist at HP who devised the digital negative module for the HP Z3200, he wanted to know some further information about my own darkroom set up.

I have written back asking if he would elaborate on the system/module they have developed to create digital negatives with the Z3200. More specifically I asked what methods they are using to fine tune/tweek the digital negatives, is this in the driver?? for me this is quite important.

I have asked If he would post further information on this thread.

That shows a remarkable degree of seriousness on the part of HP and has to be applauded.

So it will be interesting to hear the response etc.

Ian

Update :

I received an email today out of the blue from Angel Albarran, the colour scientist at HP who devised the digital negative module for the HP Z3200, he wanted to know some further information about my own darkroom set up.

I have written back asking if he would elaborate on the system/module they have developed to create digital negatives with the Z3200. More specifically I asked what methods they are using to fine tune/tweek the digital negatives, is this in the driver?? for me this is quite important.

I have asked If he would post further information on this thread.

That's quite remarkable Dave. Cool!:)

Don

Okay I received an email from Angel and he directed me 33 page pdf file that describes how digital negative creation works with the HP printer such as calibration and linearisation, it also details calibration for tri-carbon/dye transfer negatives. I have not had a chance to read it all yet, Any questions post them and i will pass them onto Angel.

link to pdf- http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/MakingHPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives1_0.pdf

There is also a zip file with charts/ramps etc... http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/download/HPLargeFormatPhotoNegatives.zip

Extracts from the introduction

'Large format photo negatives are based on the fact that every inkjet color has a different opacity in the ultraviolet spectrum. Consequently, every combination of color ink printed on a transparent paper results in a specific density when used as a negative for a printing process using ultraviolet light. In order to determine the best ink for this purpose, internal tests were conducted on a HP DesignJet Z3200 printer. The results showed that green HP ink is the best choice to control the amount of UV light filtered from a minimum to a maximum intensity. The process described here was performed with the goal of creating feasible negatives for monochrome and color alternative process such as platinum/palladium, carbon, cyanotype, gum, carbro, multicolor carbon, and tri-color gum. Note that none of these processes (including dye-transfer) are “colorimetrically accurate”, and it is not the intention of this document to change that. Instead, the main purpose is to explain a way of working with a HP Z3200 printer to make the plate negatives needed for these processes and let you enjoy expressing the beauty of your image in the way you are used to, employing your favorite process and benefiting from the control of a digital workflow. Printing a large format photo negative with inkjet ink is and old concept. There is a set of books and highly recommended methods that pioneered this. As explained above the main goal when creating this solution was not to “reinvent the wheel” but to make the process of printing large format photo negatives easier to the users and achieve the maximum quality when with the HP DesignJet Z3200 printer.'

I had a chance to skim through the document. There doesn't seem to be anything ground-breaking in there. It boils down to using colorized negatives in PS (or other imaging program), a special printing mode that only uses green and black inks, and using PS curves to linearize the final image.

The most important part, IMO, is that it is a self-contained solution, since the Z3200 can read test charts to create ICC profiles. And that HP is actually paying attention to this small segment of the market. It's far better than getting roughly the same response to questions about printing digital negatives as printing fake money.

Now, I can't afford a $3500 printer, so it doesn't mean a whole lot to me directly. But I really hope they consider pushing this technology down into other printers, even if you have to buy your own chart reader to measure. I also hope that Epson and Canon start paying attention, too.

--Greg

I had a chance to skim through the document. There doesn't seem to be anything ground-breaking in there. It boils down to using colorized negatives in PS (or other imaging program), a special printing mode that only uses green and black inks, and using PS curves to linearize the final image.

The most important part, IMO, is that it is a self-contained solution, since the Z3200 can read test charts to create ICC profiles. And that HP is actually paying attention to this small segment of the market. It's far better than getting roughly the same response to questions about printing digital negatives as printing fake money.

Now, I can't afford a $3500 printer, so it doesn't mean a whole lot to me directly. But I really hope they consider pushing this technology down into other printers, even if you have to buy your own chart reader to measure. I also hope that Epson and Canon start paying attention, too.

--Greg

I agree Greg. I have to tip my hat to HP and to Angel for being the first printer manufacturer to get directly involved in this niche and very vertical market. And I too hope the technology could be pushed down to printers that are less expensive.

Printer expense matched with actinic ink set characteristics and quality of printed output is one reason the Epson 3800 has become so popular with alternative process printers.

Thanks to Dave Chow for presenting this info here.

Don

I am really interested in this machine and thanks to dave c for the work getting this information.

Bob

I am really interested in this machine and thanks to dave c for the work getting this information.

BobIf I could afford this unit I'd get one in a heartbeat.

Don

Hi all,

My name is Angel. I work for HP as a colour scientist and I have devised the solution for the HP Z3200 printers that allows the users the creation of digital negatives to make prints with alternative processes.

As David has previously written, yesterday I asked him about some darkroom set up and he told me about this discussion thread.

I don’t have much time to answer all of you, but I would like to clarify how all this stuff has been created and evolved in order to dispel doubts.

My wife and I have been working in photography for a long time. We began to work with platinum/palladium eight years ago and since then we’ve been dealing with the same problems that everybody has to make a good negative. BTW: You can see some of our work in www.convincingblack.com
I joined HP in 2003 and when designing the Z3200 printer I worked on it as a colour engineer.

Not to mention the fact that I was printing my own digital negatives on other printers, creating curves to compensate the actinic response of the inks as everybody does. But then, I began to wonder if modifying the way we (HP) put ink on the paper and using some specific colours was possible to create a linear ramp in UV output as a response to a linear input.

I began to work on it as skunk work in my spare time analyzing the spectral response and grain created by every ink combination and I discovered that green ink was perfect for this purpose. I wanted to share this, but I realized that it was impossible to do it without changing the ink separation inside the printer.

Of course, a big company like HP will not modify an entire firmware and pipeline (implying the work of hundreds of employees) only because a crazy engineer had this idea. So I began to work again in a much simpler way to do it without changing any piece of firmware or software. I must say here that a lot of my colleagues from different areas supported me and helped me a lot.
Finally I was able to pack everything in a paper package. It is a file describing ink response, colour separation, drying time… for each paper. If you want more technical details, it can be found in the document that David pointed out.

After this step, I needed a lot of time to explain to marketing, management and other colleagues why this was so important for the Photo community. All of them realized about it (showing some platinum prints was a big help, as people were amazed about the results).

I know that it is not rocket science. I only tried to share with you what I had discovered taking advantage of my position in a big company as HP. Personally, I must thank HP all the passion and support that they put in a project that will not give to the company big revenues. You will be surprised about how many people inside HP love photography.

I also know that is a big printer not affordable for everybody, but it is the only one that I know how to tweak. If you are wondering if you can do something similar with an external spectrophotometer, a RIP, the same printer and calibrating the system by yourself, the answer is yes. My goal was to save time, efforts and money to anyone having access to this printer.
If you’re happy with your printer making digital negatives, I will advise to continue with it. If you’re planning to buy a new one, I would advise you that (if possible) try to test which one is best for you.

If finally you are using this solution and it is working for you, please, let me know about it. I have never been so proud before, as when Elliot Erwitt explained to us how happy he was after looking at his images printed with this solution.

Personally I think that “hybrid photo”+digital+analog is the future, so let’s go for it.