Wide open scanner question for scanning gurus

[clay]

Okay, I know that the gold standard for digitizing sheet film in 5x7 and larger is a well executed drum scan. But short of that, what are the options and pros and cons of particular scanners if you decide to go the flat-bed scanning route?

From the fishing expeditions I have taken on the web, it seems that there are the consumer-grade scanners whose high end may be represented by the likes of the Epson V750, and then there are the professional scanners such as the Creo, Linotype and probably several others I am not familiar with. What are the gotchas in looking for one of these higher end scanners on ebay? And is the difference that noticeable? And what, if any, effect does the scanner driving software have on the results?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I figure someone reading this forum has to know more about these things than I do at the present. For what its worth, I have a Umax Powerlook 2100XL right now that I got primarily to scan my large format contact prints. I guess an additional question would be how to make this scanner perform at its peak....

Any comments or opinions will be useful.

[Greg_E]

Wet mounting the larger films will take away any edge to edge focus problems with any flatbed scanner. After that I can't help much more. Scan Science makes some nice wet mounting adapters:
http://www.scanscience.com/index.html

[menglert]

I don't have experience with pro-flatbeds, although have been reading a little about them. There is a post recently on largeformatphotography (sorry can't find it at the moment to provide a link) about someone who purchased one.

From what I've read, there seems to be little gain in drum scanning compared to high end flatbeds. This is only what I read, I don't have experience with either. Although, I think if you were to wetmount on a high end flatbed, you would probably get a very good scan.

Hopefully some others will respond, as this is an area I'm interested in, although it will be much farther down the road before I could get into it.

Regards,
Martin

[MAGNAchrom]

if your original is too dark, then a flatbed will not give good results in the dark regions. This is where drumscans shine -- their dynamic range is such that they can deliver the data even in dark regions. However, if your original is not overly contrasty, then the entire range of values will be able to be captured by a flatbed -- giving you similar results as a drum scan.

In the end, much of it depends upon your originals.

[sanking]

Clay,

Size and weight is a very big issue with most of the high end scanners, both drum and flatbed. I recently purchased a Scitex Eversmart Pro and it weighs about 160 lbs and takes up a lot of room.

Service and parts is another issue. Eversmart scanners were built in fairly large numbers so there plenty of people around who can work on them, and parts are readily available. This is not the case with many older scanners. I would be especially careful of older drum scananers.

The software of most high end scanners is fairly sophisticated and requires more of a learning curve than the software of consumer type scanners. Also, many high end scanners have SCSI connections and require legend MAC operating system. I have an older MAC G3 running OS 9.2.2 with a SCSI on board that I dedicate to scanning. There is software avilable for the Eversmart that would allow it to run on MAC OS10, but the software plus fireware conversion would cost over $2K and is not that much better than the system that runs on 9.2.2.

The advantage of high end flatbeds over Epson such as the 4990 and V750 is sharpness. Although the Epson 4990 may be rated at 5000 dpi, if you run real resolution tests you would be luck to get even 40% efficiency. A scanner that in theory should resolve 80 lppm will in fact do no better than 30-35 lppm. High end scanners are much more efficient, which means that you can scan at lower resolution than with the consumer flatbeds and save file space. I have an older Leafscan 45, certainly a very high end scanner in its day, that will only scan a medium format negative at 2450dpi but it still gives much sharper results than any of the Epson flatbed scanners used at maximum resolution.

That said, I have been very satisfied with the results from an Epson flatbed 4870 with 5X7 negatives that are not enlarged more than 3X. If you are scanning for alternative printing with pt/pd in the end the paper texture itself will limit resolution to no more than about 6-7 lppm and the Epson flatbeds will easily deliver that much resolution at up to 3X enlargements.

Sandy

Okay, I know that the gold standard for digitizing sheet film in 5x7 and larger is a well executed drum scan. But short of that, what are the options and pros and cons of particular scanners if you decide to go the flat-bed scanning route?

From the fishing expeditions I have taken on the web, it seems that there are the consumer-grade scanners whose high end may be represented by the likes of the Epson V750, and then there are the professional scanners such as the Creo, Linotype and probably several others I am not familiar with. What are the gotchas in looking for one of these higher end scanners on ebay? And is the difference that noticeable? And what, if any, effect does the scanner driving software have on the results?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I figure someone reading this forum has to know more about these things than I do at the present. For what its worth, I have a Umax Powerlook 2100XL right now that I got primarily to scan my large format contact prints. I guess an additional question would be how to make this scanner perform at its peak....

Any comments or opinions will be useful.

[Greg_E]

If you really want to be safe with a drum scanner, then you need to buy a Howtek or Aztec since Aztec still makes a few models and services the older Howtek scanners. They also have a pretty high end flatbed, but you are talking mega dollars for each choice. If money were no object go for the Aztec HR8000 with the DPL software. Since few of us live in a state of being where money is no object the howtek 4000 and 4500 often go for under $2000, the Howtek 7500 would be better.

[clay]

Thanks for this very informative reply. In conversations with some other knowledgeable people I am getting the same basic story: nominal resolution and the quality of the resolution are two entirely different factors with these scanners.

When you bought that Eversmart scanner, did you get the software with it, or are you still able to download the software and drivers, assuming that you have a system you can run it on? I have an old G4 that will run System 9.x.x, and already has a SCSI card in it, so that end is covered.

Clay,

Size and weight is a very big issue with most of the high end scanners, both drum and flatbed. I recently purchased a Scitex Eversmart Pro and it weighs about 160 lbs and takes up a lot of room.

Service and parts is another issue. Eversmart scanners were built in fairly large numbers so there plenty of people around who can work on them, and parts are readily available. This is not the case with many older scanners. I would be especially careful of older drum scananers.

The software of most high end scanners is fairly sophisticated and requires more of a learning curve than the software of consumer type scanners. Also, many high end scanners have SCSI connections and require legend MAC operating system. I have an older MAC G3 running OS 9.2.2 with a SCSI on board that I dedicate to scanning. There is software avilable for the Eversmart that would allow it to run on MAC OS10, but the software plus fireware conversion would cost over $2K and is not that much better than the system that runs on 9.2.2.

The advantage of high end flatbeds over Epson such as the 4990 and V750 is sharpness. Although the Epson 4990 may be rated at 5000 dpi, if you run real resolution tests you would be luck to get even 40% efficiency. A scanner that in theory should resolve 80 lppm will in fact do no better than 30-35 lppm. High end scanners are much more efficient, which means that you can scan at lower resolution than with the consumer flatbeds and save file space. I have an older Leafscan 45, certainly a very high end scanner in its day, that will only scan a medium format negative at 2450dpi but it still gives much sharper results than any of the Epson flatbed scanners used at maximum resolution.

That said, I have been very satisfied with the results from an Epson flatbed 4870 with 5X7 negatives that are not enlarged more than 3X. If you are scanning for alternative printing with pt/pd in the end the paper texture itself will limit resolution to no more than about 6-7 lppm and the Epson flatbeds will easily deliver that much resolution at up to 3X enlargements.

Sandy

[sanking]

Clay,

I did not get the software with the scanner but was able to get it from a person with whom I made contact on the Yahoo high end scan group. I also managed to find a calibration slide at a reasonable price through someone on this group. The calibration slide is absolutely necessary as you can not do a full install of the software without it.

Have a look at this site if interested in Eversmart scanners. They have a few used and re-fiurbished ones available. http://www.genesis-equipment.com/home.cfm

The model I have is the Eversmart Pro and it has optical resolution of 3175 dpi. The current Eversmart is the Supreme and has resolution of over 5000dpi.

Sandy

Thanks for this very informative reply. In conversations with some other knowledgeable people I am getting the same basic story: nominal resolution and the quality of the resolution are two entirely different factors with these scanners.

When you bought that Eversmart scanner, did you get the software with it, or are you still able to download the software and drivers, assuming that you have a system you can run it on? I have an old G4 that will run System 9.x.x, and already has a SCSI card in it, so that end is covered.

[MAGNAchrom]

keep in mind that a 5x7 scanned at a mere 2400dpi will deliver 12000x16800 pixels which would give you a 40" x 56" print @ 300dpi. So finding a device that delivers 5000dpi may not be entirely necessary for you given that you will be scanning large format film exclusively.

My own tests suggest that the Epsons are limited in effective resolution to about 2400-3200dpi (cheap lenses?) in spite of their outrageous claims to the contrary. Still, more than enough for LF work.

[Ted Harris]

First in answer to Michael's "Still, more than enough for LF work." Yes, if you are not printing larger than 8x10-11x14 or are willing to accept less than than the best, especially for some color trannies. The comment above on "quality of the resolution" says it all.

Second, Clay I would have to write pages and pages to respond with accuracy to all of your questions but I will deal with some. The software is perhaps the single key item and, if not sold with the scanner, th emost expensive. Most of the high end scanners run on their company's own proprietery software and all of the packages are very full featured, sophisticated and, you guessed it, expensive. For example an upgrade to the most recent oftware for an ICG drum scanner will cost you over $3000; if the software that comes with your 'new to you' Screen scanner (either flatbed or drum) is pre the current Color Genius Software and you want to upgrade to Golor Genius then the cost will be 2500; etc. Not to mention that some older scanners are software and firmware limited in terms of which coputer platforms they can interface with. Even those that will nterface with the latest Mac or Windows platform may require a fairly expensive (an ATTO card at ~ 300) SCSI card to runn the latest software.

Generally why y thas already been said is good advice but some of the detail are not copletely accurate. For example, in addition to the manufacturers already named that are still making high end scanners, add Screen, Fuji, Microtek and Scanmate ... trouble is that not all of them are available in the US pipeline.

Some of this may sound daunting but it shouldn't, just need to make a checklist and stick to it and also realize that an initial used purchase of a piece of hardware for say $1000 may cost you closer to $5000 when it is all up and ready to go. Finally, new and/or factory refurbished units are available from Kodak, Screen and others from $9000 on up. Seems expensive, ure but no more than you would have paid for a top-of-the-line Durst enlarger a decade ago.