Why shoot black and white or chromogenic film to scan?

[pschwart]

if you want good results, a flatbed is not the way to do it.

I think this statement is too categorical. A flatbed may produce fine results depending on: quality of the scanner and film holders, scanning skills, size of the film and degree of enlargement. And let's not forget that not all flatbeds are low-end consumer models. If I had room I wouldn't mind owning a Creo ...

[hsandler]

Update: This month I acquired a Bronica ETRsi for medium format 6x4.5 and 75mm lens. I shot a variety of films to try to choose one or two to standardize on. Three colour films: Fuji 400H, Portra 400 and Ektar, two black and white films commercially developed in HC110: Tmax100 and Delta 100, and one chromogenic film XP2 Super. While the colour results, particularly with Ektar and Portra are great in colour, I do find I can't seem to achieve the same tonality and sharpness when I convert them to black and white in Photoshop with the black and white adjustment layer and curves as compared to just straight scans and very simple C shaped curves applied to the black and white films. In particular, reducing the blue channel to darken the sky gives a blotchy effect like big soft grain, somewhat like noise in the blue channel of a digital camera. This really surprised me, because I thought if anything, darkening blue would work better from a film scan where the blue channel should not have more noise than any other channel. So I'm going to focus on black and white films for black and white. I have to say the XP2 Super is quite impressive; really sharp and wide dynamic range. The TMax was sort of meh compared to Delta 100, but to be fair, I shot the whole roll on an overcast day, whereas I shot the Delta on a bright sunny day with a polarizing filter and contrasty subject matter. The Delta 100 is super sharp and the grain fine, but still more grain than the XP2 Super when scanned on my cheap Epson 4180 at 2400 ppi.

I need to repeat the comparison scanned on an Epson V750, to which I now have access. I understand grain aliasing is very dependent on the match of film to scanner and scanner settings. I just want to minimize it. Also, I was able to pick up a developing tank, thermometer and reel for $2 at a flea market, so I'm going to try home developing; hopefully I can get finer grain than the commercial lab which uses HC110.

[lenny]

I did film tests last year. I would suggest you try Xtol 1:1 for some really tight grain (and Pyro). I can tell you that TMax is not a meh film. I happen to like Delta better, but the difference is about .05%. I was able to get excellent results from both films (and from Efke 25 and TMY2). If you are just trying home developing, you are new at this, yet you are making statements that good, careful research will not support.
You are also using an Epson 750 which is not a good scanner, its a consumer level scanner, it is not a sharp-as-a-tack drum scanner. You can't make proper comparisons with any authority with that device.
Your results are valid - for you. You didn't have luck with one film or a developer, etc. However, if you can't see a difference between what color film can do in b&w, chromogenic film and what well exposed and well developed b&w film can do, then it isn't the film or the developers, its that you and your processes that are not as well tuned as they could be.
As of this summer I've been developing film for 50 years. I spent a tremendous amount of time in the darkroom, did all the alternative processes (majored in platinum) and now have the scanning and inkjet beast well in hand, making prints with inkjet as exquisite as any of the alternative processes.
There's certainly no harm in reporting one's results, but you have to be careful when other beginners might read your posts and follow you. I've made the mistake of suggesting a film isn't good and found myself to be wrong some time later. It isn't a good feeling. I am much more careful now to say what I know and what I think I know and make a clear distinction between them.

Lenny

[pschwart]

You are also using an Epson 750 which is not a good scanner, its a consumer level scanner, it is not a sharp-as-a-tack drum scanner. You can't make proper comparisons with any authority with that device.

I am going to disagree on this point. If all his scans are done using an Epson V750, then careful comparisons using that scanner with a consistent workflow will be valid. The Epson is a good consumer flatbed; it's not a drum scanner or even a dedicated film scanner. That doesn't mean it's not a useful tool.

[lenny]

I am going to disagree on this point. If all his scans are done using an Epson V750, then careful comparisons using that scanner with a consistent workflow will be valid. The Epson is a good consumer flatbed; it's not a drum scanner or even a dedicated film scanner. That doesn't mean it's not a useful tool.

In general I wouldn't disagree with you.

However, when one is measuring sharpness of film, I would say that it is useless. The thing isn't sharp. There are plenty of good photographers that use these and they are usually very experienced with a variety of sharpening techniques. But the results don't come off the scanner sharp - at all.

I would also question any CCD scanner in a contest of "range" vs PMT's. I don't mean shear high or low, but the number of tones from zone 5 to 6, for example. The flatbeds don't pull all the tones out of a piece of film like PMT's. Now the Creo folks will get all upset but I just don't see it with that technology. Resolution is another matter...

I can't really speak to how one judges what constitutes "good" in a consumer category. I will leave that to you.... but I suppose if its useful to you then perhaps that settles it...

Regards,

Lenny

EigerStudios
Museum Quality Drum Scanning and Printing

[pschwart]

Just pointing out that it's not always a scanner contest. Labels like "consumer" and "pro" don't really matter. In the end, it's about what tools and workflows can be used to create compelling images.

[lenny]

Just pointing out that it's not always a scanner contest. Labels like "consumer" and "pro" don't really matter. In the end, it's about what tools and workflows can be used to create compelling images.

I agree... some people paint. Some people use really crappy cameras. It's all their expression and as such, valid...

My images do require a lot of print quality for me. Or, at least for me to feel like I am successful. But it isn't for everyone, certainly.

Lenny

[chuck94022]

Late entry into this thread, regarding Epson sharpness. I recently purchased Doug Fischer's mounting system that allows you to place the negative in the plane of sharpest focus on the scanner. The improvement over the OEM film holders is substantial. The amount of sharpening needed post scan for me has been reduced to almost nothing. You do have to commit an afternoon to the focusing process, but it is worth it. I still don't see any improvement in resolution from about 3200 dpi on, but I can now see slight improvements in resolution right up to 3200. So it's no Coolscan but it is much better than out of the box performance.

I suspect that if I could remove the center portion of the epson's base glass the scan quality would approach the Nikon film scanner, but that is just a guess - I'm not going to go that far with it (but would love to hear from anyone who has tried it)!

I am not affiliated with Doug's company (www.betterscanning.com) but do heartily endorse the product.

I have also tried the digital camera scanning approach. It is certainly fast, and for images targeted to the web it is fine. I like it for very quick proofs. But at least in my case, I get better resolution and tonal quality from a careful scan with the (tuned) Epson, especially in smaller formats like 35mm, with the caveat that I did not have a lens on my Nikon that allowed close enough focus of 35mm to get full sensor coverage. That's a big caveat for 35mm I know. But I wasn't going to buy a new lens just for that...

For me, if I want it really quick, I use the Nikon camera. If I want a good quality scan I'll use the Epson. for those images I intend to make high quality large prints, I'll invest in a commercially done drum scan (until I get my darkroom rebuilt).


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